• Cnchi


    The hover help in Cnchi is not that helpful.

    Hover help should not just repeat what is under the hover, it should give meta information.

    Tell me why I CARE about proprietary drivers, or how to make a DECISION to install or not.

    How about info like (if it is true):

    “NVidia cards need proprietary drivers for game support.”
    “If you are having issues with video, try installing the proprietary drivers”.

    Hopefully someone will be able to say more than my feeble guesses.

    If you are going to have informational hovers, make them helpful.
    Attention to the details is what leaves people with the feeling “Gee, that was neat”.

    [Was peterg4000 but got sick of that lame user name. And no, the photo is not actually me]

  • Usually the case is the open source drivers may work better on one computer (Or a particular thing) and the proprietary may work better on another computer (Or a particular thing). It’s hard to generalize “Why is it better” when it’s mostly a case-by-case basis.

    Too make a decision on which you want to use, try then both yourself and compare performances. We aren’t forcing either or.

    I7 [email protected]/32GB Ram/3440 x 1440 + 1440p/EVGA 1080 FTW/512GB SSD/2TB HD/Antergos Base w/ Plasma

  • If you’re using a laptop and it has an integrated card and an NVIDIA card then I’d advise not to install the drivers during the installation of the OS. When you’ve successfully installed the OS, you’re going to want to have Bumblebee (for some reason, the link to the Bumblebee article on the Antergos wiki is considered “spam” by akismet.com, so I can’t post it. Just search for “Antergos bumblebee” on Google and it should come up right away) installed and then the NVIDIA proprietary drivers. You need these NVIDIA proprietary drivers if you want to be able to open Steam and play games.

    If you’re not on a laptop and you have a pure NVIDIA system then you should be to install the proprietary drivers right away. If they don’t work well, you can try the open-source drivers Nouveau. I installed the proprietary drivers right away with my desktop PC and it worked out fine. If not then I’d personally re-install Antergos and not install the drivers right away this time. However, I doubt you’re going to need to do that. I have a few friends who also have pure NVIDIA systems and they installed the drivers right away without any negative consequences.

  • @Wyn said:

    the open source drivers may work better on one computer (Or a particular thing) and the proprietary may work better on another computer

    Can I suggest then, that that is exactly what it should say in the hover help. (Plus some of the info from the other poster. Eg "Laptop user are suggested not to install proprietary"
    The total absence of clear advice does not imply there is no clear advice. It unfortunately just makes it look like the developers of Cnchi are lazy and unhelpful.

    I’m not meaning to be annoying. Just trying to help you polish the quality.

    Someone should go through every hover help in Cnchi and make sure it is actually useful… (Eg, Who knew that not installing Firefox would give you Chromium???)

    Thanks for the info though! I will suck it and see then…

    [Was peterg4000 but got sick of that lame user name. And no, the photo is not actually me]

  • @peterg4000 I have added some more info to the tooltips in this pull request, be we can not assume what’s best for the users system. It’s up to them.

    I7 [email protected]/32GB Ram/3440 x 1440 + 1440p/EVGA 1080 FTW/512GB SSD/2TB HD/Antergos Base w/ Plasma

  • @Wyn - Ahh, but someone already is making assumptions.
    Apparently if I don’t want Firefox, I must want Chromium. And it’s so obvious I am not told. Big assumptions. Maybe I am just making some utility box and I don’t want a browser at all. Why waste my time and space DL’in it?

    I agree, the install shouldn’t make unnecessary assumptions. But leaving the user in the dark as to how to make a decision is assuming everyone knows how to go about it. Another big/invalid assumption, particularly for new users you are trying to get onboard.

    At the moment my video is a bit flakey (about 1 freeze per day), and it turns out I hate Cinnamon (Taskbar too crazy small and can’t change it), so off to do yet another install…

    [Was peterg4000 but got sick of that lame user name. And no, the photo is not actually me]

  • @peterg4000 those are the top 2 web browsers so that would only make sense it includes one of them. if you dont want either takes about 5 seconds to uninstall.

    these complaints about what programs comes with distros have been going on forever. the devs here are pretty good about taking suggestions but in the end its their call. they are gonna supply a base set of programs. that would be silly not too. like i said though it doesnt take that much time to uninstall what you want.

    if you want it just a certain way a pure Arch install if probably what you want.

  • @peterg4000 said in Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?:

    …and it turns out I hate Cinnamon (Taskbar too crazy small and can’t change it)…

    Why not? Cinnamon keeps downloaded shell themes in ~/.themes/ . I’m using the Void one.

    To change panel’s fonts, simply open in any text editor the file

    ~/.themes/Void/cinnamon/cinnamon.css
    

    and change all or some font-size entries to any size you prefer. To change the whole shell’s font set the font-family entry to the preferred one.

    Restart Cinnamon for changes to take effect: Alt-F2 r Enter .

  • @megaman - You are missing the main point though. The bigger issue is simply the hover help in the installer. It’s misleading. It implies you get Firefox or (one might assume) no browser at all. It’s not about the devs decision, it’s about the devs communication of that decision.

    In fact on closer inspection - They didn’t make a decision. They let you choose Chromium or Firefox. They just don’t communicate clearly what’s going on!

    In my view the Hover help in the Cnchi selection screen is letting Antergos down with new users - It doesn’t help them to make informed decisions, which makes people wary, anxious and frustrated. (UX is my day job…)

    @just - My quick reading from Googling Cinnamon indicated panel size was a fixed pixel height. Are you saying the panel re-sizes to the font? Didn’t try that, but what I read implied it was a non-starter. Would be happy to be proved wrong. But liking Mate anyway, after a bit of tweaking.

    Really like KDE, but hit that ‘giant cursor’ bug I raised in another thread, seemingly due to 2 screens with different DPIs (Maybe)
    Linux is not being kind to me at the moment…

    [Was peterg4000 but got sick of that lame user name. And no, the photo is not actually me]

  • @megaman said:

    they are gonna supply a base set of programs. that would be silly not too.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. What brought me to Arch was the philosophy of “You get what you asked for, no more, no less”. Sneaking major apps in without telling me is really annoying, and wasteful.

    Yes, installing a bunch of apps the distro maintainers like and think you want is exactly what every other Distro does… Which is a great reason not to do it…

    I have suggested before that if the software selection screen in Cnchi gave a lot more install-time options for what you get and what you don’t, I reckon people would flock to Antergos. Maybe with a few ‘pre-canned selection’ sets (Eg Bare bones, Simple web browsing, Office desktop, etc).

    It would be all the benefits of Arch, with a good one-step up-front installer, rather than some of the benefits of Arch with a pretty installer.

    [Was peterg4000 but got sick of that lame user name. And no, the photo is not actually me]

    1. Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?
      How could one advise on such a vague question?? There are numerous topics on the Internet, there is even Linus Torvalds with his…finger gesture towards Nvidia! (for the ones who missed it, here it is)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ
      And please feel free to tell ME which ones to choose on MY computer during installation.!!!
      I will only give you some credit as to the Antergos logo Antergos for everyone".
      Obviously, Antergos (which is Arch) is NOT for everyone! And you made it clear. You are obviously talking about an ignorant Ubuntu/Mint user, who proceed with the installation having read nothing, having searched nothing, having nothing but a minimal linux experience, figuring out issues and questions during installation.
      Not a wise thing to do. Personally, it took me a lot of studying (reading and watching) so as to get to know what I am installing and what I will possibly find ahead.
    2. “The firefox misleading”.
      Well, it is more than clear that the said section of Cnchi is “Extra Software”. Somebody who has done his homework should know that Antergos comes with Chromium by default, and that during installation he is given the chance to install some extra programs.
    3. " Cnchi selection screen is letting Antergos down with new users". So far, I have not seen any such claims. Cnchi has been criticized for being unstable, buggy, you name it what. All criticism was about functionality, though, not its being misleading to newcomers.
    4. By the way, Firefox was a community request to include to Cnchi because most of newcomers were used to it and the devs responded to it. .
      So it is not just a “a bunch of apps the distro maintainers like and think you want”. They have preconfigured an Arch sydtem, set a number of apps to make it ready to use and are open to suggestions. You might have seen a recent post on a wallpaper competition and another one on video players.
      To sum up:
    5. Cnchi could/should not be turned into a full wiki on anything to be selected to install.
    6. Relevant homework should be done beforehand
    7. There are questions that can only be answered on a real hardware test
    8. Any configuration the Antergos devs have come up with is not compulsory to use. Change anything you don t like, add, remove, re-spin. After all this is the spirit of Linux.
      Enjoy!:+1:

    1.Antergos Linux KDE plasma / Gnome 2.Ubuntu 17.10 64bit Unity
    Intel Core2 Duo CPU P8400 2.26GHz‖ RAM 3908 MiB ‖ Dell Inc. 0F328M - Dell Inc. Latitude E6500
    Intel Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics [8086:2a42] {i915

  • @peterg4000 said in Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?:


    @just - My quick reading from Googling Cinnamon indicated panel size was a fixed pixel height. Are you saying the panel re-sizes to the font? Didn’t try that, but what I read implied it was a non-starter. Would be happy to be proved wrong. But liking Mate anyway, after a bit of tweaking.

    I never post anything that I didn’t try or don’t use myself. It wouldn’t have any sense to suggest to increase the font size if the panel wasn’t scaled / enlarged accordingly. Agree, with default font sizes Cinnamon shells are very hard to read and almost unusable.

    Cinnamon’s panel has some degree of scaling flexibility. Sure, if you set font size, say, to 48pt, the panel will not be enlarged so much. But if you set reasonable font sizes, the panel, and other GUI elements (popups, windows) are scaled accordingly.

    Below is a shot ofmy Cinnamon with Void theme.

    I’ve changed the default Droid Sans font family to Amaranthkern01. With the latter, the default 8.5pt panel’s font size is increased to 14pt. It’s so huge in this example only, actually I’m using 12pt for the panel.

    I also increased the default 9pt menu font size to 14pt. Again, it’s so big in this example only. In everyday life it is set to 12pt.

    The font in Geany text editor under Cinnamon’s menu is Audimat Mono Regular 14pt.

    alt text

    Don’t believe blindly everything you read in Internet. Read, if it seems reasonable, try it. It may or may not work. Changing Cinnamon themes font sizes works.

  • @megaman said in Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?:

    if you want it just a certain way a pure Arch install if probably what you want.

    Or choosing base when choosing a DE in the installer :P .

    I7 [email protected]/32GB Ram/3440 x 1440 + 1440p/EVGA 1080 FTW/512GB SSD/2TB HD/Antergos Base w/ Plasma

  • @peterg4000 said in Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?:

    @megaman said:

    they are gonna supply a base set of programs. that would be silly not too.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. What brought me to Arch was the philosophy of “You get what you asked for, no more, no less”. Sneaking major apps in without telling me is really annoying, and wasteful.

    Yes, installing a bunch of apps the distro maintainers like and think you want is exactly what every other Distro does… Which is a great reason not to do it…

    I have suggested before that if the software selection screen in Cnchi gave a lot more install-time options for what you get and what you don’t, I reckon people would flock to Antergos. Maybe with a few ‘pre-canned selection’ sets (Eg Bare bones, Simple web browsing, Office desktop, etc).

    It would be all the benefits of Arch, with a good one-step up-front installer, rather than some of the benefits of Arch with a pretty installer.

    you keep saying Arch but this isnt Arch. this is Antergos which is based on Arch.

    if you want things just a certain way you want to head to
    https://www.archlinux.org

    thats Arch :+1:

  • @Wyn said in Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?:

    @megaman said in Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?:

    if you want it just a certain way a pure Arch install if probably what you want.

    Or choosing base when choosing a DE in the installer :P .

    or yes choose base ;)

  • I went Arch first.
    I’ve done a few Arch installs. It just gets a bit tedious.

    I used the name Arch on purpose.

    I then came to Antergos with the view it was Arch with the main problem fixed - The tedious installation to get to a usable, non-ugly desktop.

    But I still primarily love the minimalist philosophy of Arch.

    I still think a few more more selection sliders during the app selection (and clearer hover help) would make Antergos really stand out from the crowd even more. The choice of desktops is already unparalleled. Why not take the same approach with all the main apps? I think people would love you for it - The first fully functional desktop installer that didn’t ram the Devs personal preferences down your throat.

    It’s halfway there already…

    Sorry - I sound like a winging twot, but I quite like Antergos and am just trying to make it even better. (IMHO anyway…)

    @just - Thanks for the info on Cinnamon. I did only have a quick look. Quite liking Mate for now. It can do a 2-row window list, which is something I tend to like (And I know I am in the minority on that…)

    [Was peterg4000 but got sick of that lame user name. And no, the photo is not actually me]

  • Hi!

    This topic’s title is misleading as this has become an Installer discussion instead of a nvdida drivers one (I’m ok with it, it’s just I didn’t read it until now).

    I still think a few more more selection sliders during the app selection (and clearer hover help) would make Antergos really stand out from the crowd even more. The choice of desktops is already unparalleled. Why not take the same approach with all the main apps? I think people would love you for it

    We’re REALLY open to suggestions. But we need something more specific (like the complain about the nvidia drivers tooltip).

    About the Chromium/Firefox thingie, we added Chromium as a default, but some users complained about having to uninstall it and install firefox instead, so we added the option. But I see your point. Maybe we could add a chromium option and make it selected by default, so if you unselect it no browser will be installed… but you must admit that the average user will need an Internet browser for sure… that’s why we didn’t think about it.

    The first fully functional desktop installer that didn’t ram the Devs personal preferences down your throat.

    That was never our intention. Please, keep in mind that novice users want to finish the installation with a system “that just works” ™. That’s why we supply a (what we think is minimal) set of applications already installed. Internet browser, uncompressing tools, video and audio players, … and I think that’s most of it.

    Cheers!

  • @karasu

    About the Chromium/Firefox thingie, we added Chromium as a default, but some users complained about having to uninstall it and install firefox instead, so we added the option. But I see your point. Maybe we could add a chromium option and make it selected by default, so if you unselect it no browser will be installed… but you must admit that the average user will need an Internet browser for sure… that’s why we didn’t think about it.

    While you’re at it, you might as well add an option for Google Chrome. I’ve had several issues with Chromium, but the issues disappeared when I installed Chrome instead.

  • @karasu said in Should I install proprietary NVidia drivers during install or not?:

    Maybe we could add a chromium option and make it selected by default[…]

    Now we’re talkin’. That would be great. And as suggested by @Юрий, maybe Chrome as well.

    But at a minimum, the Firefox Hover help should explain that you will get Chromium if you reject Firefox!!! Whether you want that or not, either way you should be told. Some people might also EASILY think - “So if I don’t install Firefox I get no browser?” The lack of clarity there can cause confusion either way…

    That’s why we supply a (what we think is minimal) set of applications already installed. Internet browser, uncompressing tools, video and audio players, … and I think that’s most of it.

    There’s also Pidgin (which I don’t use), Transmission (some users might be quite against torrenting, and others scared they are going to be pwned by having it), HP Device manager (Or did CUPS pull that in?).

    Actually, now that I have looked through the menus thoroughly, it is not as much as I thought it was… That’s the end of my list.

    But since I have your ear @karasu - There could be a bunch of useful, informative improvements to the Hover help at the software installer screen. The font one is comical if I recall correctly - It tells you the history of the font format I think, but gives a user NO CLUE why they might or might not want to install the extra fonts, and why the heck it is an option they have to decide. - THAT’S the sort of help the Hover text should be giving for each and every item.

    Cheers. Kudos to the community here and the reliable responses. And to making an Arch-based solution awesome.

    [Was peterg4000 but got sick of that lame user name. And no, the photo is not actually me]

  • { OFF TOPIC }
    Coming to the Google Chrome suggestion, I believe that not even…Canonical would ever take the step to opt for NON FOSS software during installation.
    I remember a long Firefox vs Chromium post here in the forum questioning the default use of a Google product (despite its open source nature). Now we ve come to talk about the original close source/proprietary staff. To some, Antergos has stepped away the KISS principle. To me, it just gives a basic ready-to-use Arch system. :+1:
    On the other hand, I would welcome tools that could make our distro stand out. Such as Cnchi (becoming more and more mature), the Software Center (promised to be released/ pamac can be used fine as such, just remember to double click on an app to see more hidden info, in its new version), drivers (I read Linux Mint is dropping it in their new release, I guess for a reason)
    AND @karasu @lots-0-logs
    a clever idea from Ubuntu Mate devs. A Software boutique (being included in their Welcome Screen) where there is a wide selection of commonly used software to add after installation at a click s distance. Or is it what you have been working with in Antergos Software Center? :zipper_mouth:

    On

    1.Antergos Linux KDE plasma / Gnome 2.Ubuntu 17.10 64bit Unity
    Intel Core2 Duo CPU P8400 2.26GHz‖ RAM 3908 MiB ‖ Dell Inc. 0F328M - Dell Inc. Latitude E6500
    Intel Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics [8086:2a42] {i915

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