• Opinion Poll: We want to know what you think about something we've been considering


    Check it out over on our G+ Community Page. Here’s a direct link:

    https://plus.google.com/+AntergosLinux/posts/FkKsvsWiPAU

  • Nay :-1: .

    There isn’t that much activity on it besides the random “blimbs” of it. When people come asking for help, most are very impatient and would leave in a couple minutes. Using another platform wouldn’t make it better only complicated, using an irc webchat the user can get in the channel in seconds.

    (Isn’t general issues what the wiki is for?)

    For your points…

    Mobile and native apps are mostly terrible.

    I don’t use mobile devices so I can’t comment. (I stick to hexchat and konversation…both open source)

    The lack of “user is typing” slows down conversations.

    This is what highlighting is for, it sends the person a notification. 99% of people have no reason to leave after a few minutes besides being impatient.

    IRC can be a struggle for even the most technical users.

    http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=antergos ???

    To be fair there would be much more participation in the IRC channel if anyone in the team was actually using the channel :).

    I7 3770K@4.3Ghz/32GB Ram/3440 x 1440 + 1440p/EVGA 1080 FTW/512GB SSD/2TB HD/Antergos Base w/ Plasma

  • To be fair there would be much more participation in the IRC channel if anyone in the team was actually using the channel

    I really, really tried. I never used IRC before, and I don’t like it. You have to remember a bunch of strange commands, and many times users didn’t wait for my answers… so I felt stupid reading questions and then realising that the user was not there anymore.

    To tell you the truth, I do not know if changing the platform is the solution, but something must be done.

    Cheers!

  • Slack is not the answer, IRC is the answer and here is why.

    1 - Mobile and Ease of Use is not a problem, thanks to Kiwi IRC.

    Mobile and native apps are mostly terrible.

    This is not true, it totally depends on user preference but when it comes to ease of use the various clients are not relevant because the Antergos website should link to one client only, KiwiIRC.

    The lack of “user is typing” slows down conversations.

    This might be true for one on one conversations but this is not true in a public chat scenario. I use Slack because the site I write articles for now uses it and I can honestly say “I have never paid attention to the ‘is typing’ feature”, hell I didn’t even know it existed because it means so little. Highlights are MUCH more important.

    IRC can be a struggle for even the most technical users.

    If you expect them to figure it out maybe but you don’t have to expect them to do that thanks to Kiwi IRC.
    On the website replace “IRC Channel” with “IRC Chat” and then add an extra that says “IRC Chat Wiki” or “IRC Chat Help Wiki”.

    IRC Chat would link to the Kiwi IRC page for #antergos
    IRC Chat Wiki would link to the wiki article about the channel.


    Kiwi IRC provides support for both Desktop Users and Mobile Users as the interface switches based on the viewport of the device. The URL wouldn’t even need to change at all because it is responsive.

    Kiwi IRC is also really helpful in the sense that accounts are not needed to be made, unlike Slack, and all you have to do is type in a nickname and go.

    Kiwi IRC solves the device support, ease of use, and barrier to entry.

    Here is a Screenshot Album of Kiwi IRC and why it is the solution. - http://imgur.com/a/xgMRI


    2 - Antergos Installs should provide pre-loaded IRC clients with the #antergos channels and maybe we should make more channels.

    Antergos already provides IRC clients by default but they do not have to any servers or channels preloaded. Linux Mint had a good idea in preloading the clients with their server and their channels so people could easily get help with the clients.

    Antergos should do this as well.


    3 - Antergos Community would have better IRC Participation if the Antergos Team Participated in IRC.

    Before I joined the project as a contributor, the IRC was basically dead because no one was there to help most of the time and no one created any kind of system to get help from Idlers.

    Once I started keeping active in the channel and once I created the !help system the participation skyrocketed.

    Before my changes = ~18 users
    After my changes = 81 users (as of right now)
    -Edit: I just wanted to add this is also completely passive efforts, no one is actively trying to get users to use the IRC channel. This is participation increases solely due to better organization and better management of the channel.

    I think the only members of the Antergos Team that have ever been in the channel are @lots-0-logs , @karasu ,and @faidoc but none of these mentioned have been in the channel in weeks or even months. The other members combined participation is a grand total of never.

    If someone comes in looking for a developer to ask a question the only response I can give is “use the forum, here is the link”. I have Bit.ly Forum URL statistics that shows the IRC has redirected people to the forum at least 142 times for some reason or another.

    I am not saying that IRC should take over from the Forum or anything like that. I am simply saying that IRC can’t work for a project if said project doesn’t ever try to make it work.

    Personal: http://michaeltunnell.com
    Business: http://visuex.com

  • Antergos Installs should provide pre-loaded IRC clients with the #antergos channels and maybe we should make more channels.

    I like this idea very much. There’s a “welcome” app that I wanted to add to Antergos for ages, but lack of time has made it impossible. I’ll get into it after Cnchi 0.14, promise.

  • I already made that giant reply so I will just reply to @karasu separately to not make it even more info overload.

    I really, really tried. I never used IRC before, and I don’t like it. You have to remember a bunch of strange commands,

    You don’t have to remember strange commands at all. I am the OP who handles the management of the crap so really just using it like an AOL chatroom is all you have to do. You can learn the commands if you want to but you don’t have to.

    and many times users didn’t wait for my answers… so I felt stupid reading questions and then realising that the user was not there anymore.

    This is totally true but this is true for absolutely any real time communication tool. The issue is I didn’t show you how to manage that crap because it is actually easy, my bad. Tip #1 = ALWAYS use Tab Completion. If you use Tab Completion to start your messages then you will realize that someone left when the tab completion doesn’t actually work since they are no longer there. This will limit some of the annoyance but might not limit the reading aspect. I actually learned to tab complete before I even read it just to check because it is a very fast way to check.

    I also regret telling you to use Quassel, Konversation is so much better and I’d like to show you why when you have time.

    To tell you the truth, I do not know if changing the platform is the solution, but something must be done.

    It won’t, people are incredibly impatient especially on real time tools because they expect everyone to be there waiting to answer them staring at the channel because for some reason they think they are the most important issue at hand.


    I like this idea very much. There’s a “welcome” app that I wanted to add to Antergos for ages, but lack of time has made it impossible. I’ll get into it after Cnchi 0.14, promise.

    Thanks and yea that Welcome App thing sounds good…take a look at Ubuntu MATE, Wimpy made a Welcome App and he based it on some Antergos stuff actually. Maybe we can use that and pull it back into Antergos. Sharing the Wealth. :) - https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/ubuntu-mate-welcome-screen/1616

    Personal: http://michaeltunnell.com
    Business: http://visuex.com

  • @karasu

    You have to remember a bunch of strange commands

    ???, as a normal user only command I use is autocomplete for usernames. An admin ofcourse would have more commands, but that is expected.

    many times users didn’t wait for my answers

    Impatient people sadly you can’t avoid. A forum that everyone can help out instead of a few would help against this.

    (I would also mention the top 5 channels on freenode are distro’s, including beginner ones like ubuntu.)

    I7 3770K@4.3Ghz/32GB Ram/3440 x 1440 + 1440p/EVGA 1080 FTW/512GB SSD/2TB HD/Antergos Base w/ Plasma

  • Forgive the intrusion, but the IRC is only the language Inglés, Spanish speakers have no chance against it, although it is clear and it is known that the language Inglés is boss right?

    However; would be nice to have an IRC Translates instantly or one in spanish, because there are many users in Latin America, I say, you say if I’m wrong …

    Autodidacta en la VIDA …y en Linux, también.

  • @MichaelTunnell said:

    Tip #1 = ALWAYS use Tab Completion.

    This is EXACTLY my point. The user should not need to find any “tips” on how to use the platform. It should be intuitive and easy.

    I don’t have time to post my response to everything that has been said on this thread so I will have to refer you to my last comment on the G+ post. I’m sorry but nothing you’ve said has changed my mind on the matter. In fact most of what has been said only further proves my initial point. Look, you guys like the IRC then that is fine. There’s no reason it can’t continue. However, as far as getting more developer participation, that’s not likely to happen if IRC is the only outlet. I don’t like IRC, I don’t use IRC, therefore you never see me on it. As @karasu already said, basically the same goes for him. We (the devs) are busy people, and anything that can make our jobs easier is something I am all for. IRC is not one of those things. Sorry!

  • This is EXACTLY my point. The user should not need to find any “tips” on how to use the platform. It should be intuitive and easy.

    That is not your point, you are talking about average users and average users do not need that information at all. @karasu would be providing help and the people who are idling in the channel would benefit from learning techniques to idle more effectively. This is irrelevant to your point and also irrelevant to the platform because there are also tips to learn Slack, which is why there are so many articles giving Slack Tips.

    However, as far as getting more developer participation, that’s not likely to happen if IRC is the only outlet. I don’t like IRC, I don’t use IRC, therefore you never see me on it. As @karasu already said, basically the same goes for him.

    If this is the case then what was the point of asking the community?

    We (the devs) are busy people, and anything that can make our jobs easier is something I am all for. IRC is not one of those things. Sorry!

    Regardless of using Slack or IRC the same thing goes, you will be spending more time helping people if you are willing to be there to help.

    Personal: http://michaeltunnell.com
    Business: http://visuex.com

  • @MichaelTunnell said:

    If this is the case then what was the point of asking the community?

    The reason is simple. We want to know when given the choice between IRC and Slack, which platform would antergos users prefer.

    I’m not going to keep going back and forth with you though @MichaelTunnell because I know that it will accomplish nothing. You like what you like, and your’re not going to change your mind no matter what anyone says. To be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I just ask that you keep in mind that your preferred option, while it may be the best option for you, it won’t be for everyone (the firefox vs. chromium topic comes to mind here). I assure you that I will do the same. In fact, though it’s not my own preference, let me be clear in that I acknowledge and respect that IRC is your preference.

  • ok! ok! calm down everyone before i start banning people :bowtie:

    my vote would be for slack only because ive tried IRC on and off over the years and not really my thing. i didnt know anything about slack before today but looked it up and looks pretty modern and cool. if the devs think it will be easier to work with then thats what you guys should use. its your system.

    i like the forum software switch you made and hopefully i will like slack.

    @MichaelTunnell you make a good argument for IRC. i really dont have much of a preference really. i just dont use IRC myself so i might give slack a try.

    i think michael is right in there wasnt much point of asking the community it sounded like the decision was already made but these are your calls to make. hopefully everyone will be happy with the new system :+1:

  • @megaman Just to clarify, no decision has been made yet though we aren’t asking the community to make a decision. We simply want to know how the community feels about using Slack instead of IRC so that we can take it into consideration when making our decision :wink:

  • @lots.0.logs

    You like what you like, and your’re not going to change your mind no matter what anyone says. To be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    While I know you don’t mean that in a negative way that is simply not true. I am not a stubborn user who refuses to listen to people regardless of what they say and I do not make judgements of things before I have actually tried something. I have used Slack, I am currently using Slack right now with the article site I am writing for and I have been using it with them for weeks now. I am quite familiar with it but I do not see it as this amazing new technology that so many people seem to think it is. It takes 95% of its ideas from IRC itself including Nickname Tab Completion.

    Slack has some interesting features overall and it does have some merit but I think it is more you and the rest of the team that are stubborn about IRC rather than me being stubborn about Slack. I’m just saying that it seems like a double standard situation.

    I don’t really care if Slack is chosen as I will continue to use IRC. This may mean that I will keep the IRC channel alive or it may mean that I will setup Slack in my IRC client. I don’t know yet but I don’t have to stop using my applications if Antergos does go to Slack either way. So in the long run it doesn’t really effect me regardless of what is decided.


    @megaman

    my vote would be for slack only because ive tried IRC on and off over the years and not really my thing

    What did you not like about it? I am just curious.

    Personal: http://michaeltunnell.com
    Business: http://visuex.com

  • @MichaelTunnell said:

    I do not see it as this amazing new technology that so many people seem to think it is.

    I agree with you. I don’t consider Slack an amazing new technology. You seem to be focusing on this generally instead of within the context of Antergos. Do you know what I mean? This was never a discussion of IRC’s merits vs Slack for everyone across the entire web. If I gave any other impression, it was not my intention and I apologize.

    @MichaelTunnell said:

    I think it is more you and the rest of the team that are stubborn about IRC rather than me being stubborn about Slack.

    You know what, you’re probably right. Everyone has their own workflow with which they are comfortable. For us (antergos developers), IRC is not a part of our workflow (though its not for lack of trying because I assure you we’ve tried many times over the years). For you, IRC is part of your workflow and probably has been for years. While Slack has recently become a part of it as well, its understandable that your preference is for IRC. For me personally, Slack is my primary line of communication with my paying job so, yes, I use it daily, have done so for a couple years now, and it’s comfortable to me.

    I could certainly understand why you would be so strongly against using Slack for #antergos if Slack wasn’t a part of your workflow. Though considering that Slack is also part of your workflow, I have to admit I was/am surprised by your strong opposition to it. Though, perhaps those feelings are misdirected (as I mentioned at the beginning of this post.) Or maybe I am completely wrong about that. I don’t know :pensive:

  • :-1: to leaving IRC, I am not moving to anything else and IRCv3 is making IRC to be able to compete with Slack etc. better and good example of this is KiwiIRC which was mentioned earlier.

    I don’t agree with editing IRC clients that come with Antergos, but instead adding a new launcher to menus by default with name like “Antergos IRC” and it starting chromium --app=https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net:+6697/#antergos. Try running that.

    As far as I am aware, Chromium is still the default browser and isn’t going to change in near future.

  • @Mikaela This looks like

    screenshot

    I think other browsers also have similar option, @Wyn said that Firefox is also an option in the installer.

  • By now, this discussion does not see it meaning that developers do what you have to do @ lots.0.logs- @ Karasu and if they think is best, because metanle forward, are the owners of the circus and youThey decide, users will abide more or less, but in the end are the rules.
    You have the decision and action, otherwise let them talk and comment as they please.
    Again, you do what you believe conveniente.-

    Autodidacta en la VIDA …y en Linux, también.

  • The first option (Slack) does not mean that the second option (IRC) will shutdown, am I wrong? I believe that both ways of communication have their pros and cons. The IRC channel can continue to exist for user-to-user based knowledge base and help and Slack for developer-to-user communication. And don’t forget this forum, which is in my opinion one of the best forum layouts.

  • And don’t forget this forum, which is in my opinion one of the best forum layouts.

    • 1 :thumbsup:

    Autodidacta en la VIDA …y en Linux, también.

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